Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) Allowed

A prominent and regular diarist currently sits atop the Recommended list.  She wants to know what's allowed as we approach the denouement of the contest for the Democratic presidential nomination.

She won't respond to answers in her own diary, so this diary is intended as a primer on what is, and what is not, allowed.  And by the way, I'm following her lead in using the word allowed: I don't get to make any rules; I'm speaking only as one Obama supporter with almost six years of experience at MyDD about what I believe diarists and posters should and should not do.

Update [2008-5-20 13:38:41 by deminva]: I've added MATTW's rules from his comment below. I changed their numbering to have a single list; his rules start after my final rule.

[Update 2] Thanks to everyone who has suggested other rules. Just to be clear, I envision these rules as no more than guidelines for what diarists and posters should and should not do if they wish to be valued and respected members of this community. If you have any constructive feedback for me, please provide it.

Some posters have taken exception to my habit of offering examples that are uniformly critical of Clinton and/or her supporters. I did so on purpose, in part because I wanted to tacitly invite Clinton supporters to "follow" my "rules" by offering substantive counterarguments to any of my examples. If anyone cares to offer examples that illustrate shortcomings of Obama supporters, by all means do so. Some posters have generally rebutted me by saying that all facts are interpretations. Without getting too deep, I disagree. For example, Obama won the Virginia primary and in it the white vote. Those are facts, and unless you want to take exception to how we define winning a primary or how voters define their race, they aren't subject to interpretation. Similarly, Clinton said in October that the MI primary wouldn't count. That's a fact. You can go to Youtube and listen to her say it. Now, I believe that the most reasonable interpretation for why she made the statement is that she wanted to justify to the voters of NH why she was keeping her name on the MI ballot, her point being that NH voters had no reason to think that she was showing their first-in-the-nation primary any disrespect by staying on the MI ballot. But whatever her rationale for saying it, it's a settled fact: Clinton stated that the MI primary wouldn't count.

1.  You are allowed to offer substantive criticism of candidates.  By substantive, I mean that your criticism should be thoughtful and reflective of an understanding of the issue(s).  If your criticism is shared only by fellow online supporters and Fox News, it may not be substantive.  For example, Clinton supporters like to suggest that Tony Rezko is a huge liability for Obama, when in fact polls show that Rezko is a non-issue for most voters.  They also like to damn Obama with Rezko, suggesting that their connection is some sort of proof of Obama's dishonesty or poor ethics, whereas both Chicago papers, after conducting extensive interviews with Obama about Rezko, concluded that Obama did nothing improper and praised him for answering all their questions so forthrightly.

2.  You are not allowed to offer up a campaign's talking points as facts and expect them to be accepted whole cloth.  For example, Senator Clinton offered the talking point this weekend that Obama wasn't campaigning in Kentucky, which demonstrated that he doesn't care about the state or its voters.  But she isn't campaigning in Oregon, so does she not care about Oregonians?  Two weeks ago, she wasn't campaigning in NC.  In February, she didn't campaign in a lot of the red caucus states.  Perhaps these decisions are not about "caring about the voters" and  instead reflect tactical campaign decisions about where a candidate's time can best be spent.

3.  You are not allowed make baldly contradictory statements.  Lots of choice examples here.  My favorite is In the interest of fairness, the MI and FL primaries must count.  

4.  You are not allowed to use "black box" metrics as the basis for grand claims.  The best is example is Clinton is winning the popular vote and therefore deserves to be the nominee.  Anything else will be a betrayal of democracy.

5.  Corollary to #4:  You are not allowed to use simplistic metrics that undercut your central premise.  Again, this popular vote canard: For Clinton to "win" the popular vote, one must (a) count MI and FL, which don't currently count; (b) count MI, where Obama wasn't on the ballot; (c) not count multiple caucus states where Clinton lost badly; (d) be willing to diminish the enfranchisement of every caucusgoer in every caucus state, since their results carry far less weight in a popular vote tally than in a count of pledged delegates; (e) count the results of the TX primary but not of the TX caucus; (f) disregard the fact that, if this had been a race for the most votes, both candidates would have campaigned very differently; and (g) disregard the related fact that, if this had been a race for the most votes, every state with sense would have held primaries instead of caucuses to maximize their effect.

6.  You are not allowed to make high-minded calls for comity in the thread of your diary, then start casting aspersions.  For example, the diarist in question made such a call in an Indiana Primary Results diary, only to follow it up by declaring that, if Obama somehow won the state, it would be because the mayor of Gary committed vote fraud.

7.  You are not allowed to call substantive criticism "vitriolic" and "hate-filled."  I know this rule can be hard to follow when there in fact is vitriol and hate in the air.  But the fact remains that the diarist in question likes to call any substantive criticism of Clinton "vitriolic."  Here's an example:  When I write that Clinton is a hypocrite and a liar about Michigan's primary, I'm offering neither vitriol nor hate.  I'm offering facts.  In October, she stated that "everyone knew" the MI primary wasn't going to count; it was her sole justification for keeping her name on the ballot.  She even said it in response to a caller her questioned whether keeping her name on the ballot wasn't just another example of politicians saying one thing while doing another.

8.  You are not allowed to use derogatory terms like Obamabot and then decry how mean-spirited other posters are.  Use derogatory terms if you like; keep your taglines that say clever things like I'm a Methodist; I don't need another messiah.  Just realize that, in doing so, you're forfeiting your right to complain about others' rough language and your credibility as a reasonable contributor to the conversation.

And my last rule:  You are not allowed to write one diary after another full of claims, criticisms, and assertions and then not respond honestly and substantively to thoughtful rebuttals.  The diarist in question has broken this rule so many times that she has squandered her credibility with much of the MyDD community.  It's a bizarre state of affairs.

This list is certainly not intended to be comprehensive, so please offer you own rules.

[Here are MATTW's rules]

Rule #10: We don't praise John McCain. Regardless of the point you want to make, you don't build him up by comparison. The only time I've brought up a favorable comparison to McCain is specifically in the context of Clinton making her "I've crossed that line, McCain has crossed that line" speech, where I pointed out that if she wanted to win the nomination that way, McCain can draw his own line that she can't cross. So in short, unless the Dem candidate is praising McCain, in which case, fair's fair.

Rule #11: Don't post stupid electability arguments. I'm not saying don't say one is more electable than the other. But if you're going to attempt to argue that one is as good as dead in the fall, I say: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Everything we can see shows that both our candidates are extremely electable, and since McCain has had a largely free ride for months, I think it's safe to say the worst is yet to come for him. If you're going to argue the supers must "save" the party, please, be rational, and realize that your argument is, on the face, absurd. You must make a world class argument, or you're just blowing hot air.

Rule #12: If you have raised a talking point dozens of times in the past, please indicate that you actually read the other side. For example, it is entirely inappropriate to talk about Obama's "present" votes as if they were somehow anti-choice; or, if you want to ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary, it at least behooves you to include a disclaimer. You won't see me talking about how Hillary's campaign contacted the Canadian PM regarding NAFTA, since evidence to that effect was basically debunked. Likewise, I'd appreciate it if diaries from regulars did not read like propaganda pieces that completely ignore the other side.

Rule #13: If you get the urge to cheerlead for a Democratic candidate, please realize that the two Democrats both largely stand for the same thing. When someone exhorts people to vote for Hillary because, "We need to end the war" or "We need to fix health care in this country", I always double-take. If we're contrasting against McCain, wonderful. We need those. Our candidates are clearly the right choice. But most such claims seem to be attached to fundraising appeals and warnings up upcoming Democratic primaries. They did vote the same 98% of the time. The hyperbolic, "X is the only person who can possibly Y" arguments treat the reader as stupid, frankly.

Rule #14: Put yourself in the other side's shoes. This is the Golden Rule. If your post is written as if your candidate's superiority is a foregone conclusion, then don't be surprised when people want to pop that balloon - be it counterarguments, sarcasm, or totally non sequitur "but he can't even win WV?" type comebacks; if you can't acknowledge, implicitly or explicitly, that half the party (roughly) disagrees with you, then you should probably rephrase or rethink.

Not so much in the "rules" vein, but similar to point #14, I'd hope that both sides consider:

(1) Clinton supporters: imagine the positions reversed. You have to seriously picture Hillary as a near-lock, with Obama praying for a superdelegate overturn, the credentials committee seating Illinois (even though Clinton wasn't on the ballot) and South Carolina in full, and making some specious claim on the popular vote total. Meanwhile, supers are flocking to her, the press has declared her the winner, and, oh yeah, she has a ton of money and Obama is $20M in the hole. I'm not saying don't fight for your candidate, but try to respect the position the "other side" is in.

(2) Obama supporters: As long as Clinton has not conceded, don't expect the Clinton supporters to concede. If she goes to the convention, they go to the convention. If positions were reversed and you were really passionate about Obama's candidacy, and were convinced he was better in the fall and more electable besides, would you quit before he did? Show some respect for the passionate Clinton supporters.

Oh, yes:

Rule #15: PICK A TOPIC. Please. Pleeeease. Don't make one diary into a hodgepodge run-down of every pro-Your-Candidate anti-Their-Candidate news you can find. If you're making a diary about your candidate's awesome campaign rally, be about that, and save the jab at the other candidate for another time. If you're slamming the other candidate for a vote or a policy position, focus on that, instead of putting two paragraphs toward that, and then dedicating three more to, "It's just like X to do this, like they did A, and then B, and then they did C, which proves they're unelectable!" Argh! (This last thing is most frequently seen by people who are simultaneously trodding all over "Rule #11")



Display:


Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 8)

rec'ed.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:52:41 AM EST

Alegre is a Democrat... (2.00 / 3)

And she is my friend, regardless.

Forgetting that basic should not be allowed.


Clinton Democrats care about the same things I do, most importantly beating John McCain.
by TrueBlueCT on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:11:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre is a Democrat... (2.00 / 1)

This is not an attack.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:16:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No one said it is... (2.00 / 4)

But too often we talk to one another as if we are enemies. (I'm referring to both sides here.)

Anyway, everyone will naturally wind down, as this fight itself winds down.

Hardcore supporters like Alegre shouldn't be expected to throw in the towel until the candidate herself actually concedes.

Gosh knows, when I really get behind a candidate I do the exact same thing.


Clinton Democrats care about the same things I do, most importantly beating John McCain.
by TrueBlueCT on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:32:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No one said it is... (2.00 / 1)

No one said 'throw in the towel'. Read the diary again - It was asking for substantive criticisms .. not plain assertions.

Of course no one can force logic down someones throat so I don't expect anything different to come out of this other than another diary saying "I will not be shut up " or something like that :-)


by v2r1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:41:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Do we talk to eachother LIKE we are enemies? (none / 0)

Or have we become enemies?


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:07:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do we talk to eachother LIKE we are enemies? (none / 0)

I wonder myself sometimes.


ооо
by Mumphrey on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, it's not an attack... (none / 0)

...it's an intervention.

Alegre is a democrat, but that doesn't mean she's perfect.  She is falling into a very bad situation and it would be irresponsible to just let her keep falling.


by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

agreed (2.00 / 3)

even though i strongly disagree with just about everything she's written in about a year, we must not forget that she and other hill supporters ARE democrats (for the most part anyway).  i sincerely hope that the supporters of team clinton will be with us in november.  i suspect most of them will.  those who are claiming they'll vote for mccain are one of two things: not dems, or just really hurt and mad right now.  being an old deaniac, i relate to the "hurt and mad" part.  i found it incredibly hard to carry water for kerry, but i did it (as did most deaniacs).  i'm sure the same will apply to the majority of hill's supporters.


Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:16:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: agreed (2.00 / 5)

we must not forget that she and other hill supporters ARE democrats (for the most part anyway)
I'd even omit the "for the most part."  Hillary supporters are Democrats, and damned good Democrats.  The well, unfortunately, has been poisoned by trolls, troublemakers, and agents provocateur who are pretending to be HRC supporters to gain a voice here and disrupt our party.  Those people are not Democrats, and we must be vigilant.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:32:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

point taken (2.00 / 0)

i certainly should've specified that i suspect most of the ones screaming that they'll vote mccain over obama are the ones i suspect are not dems or are trolls.


Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:36:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: agreed (2.00 / 3)

If you think about where we are now, compared to Dean's campaign catching on in the Fall of 2003, and its kneecapping by Lieberman and the trad media in 2004, and now his strategy and leadership of the DNC for 4 years (if not much of the credit) are propelling the rise of all those new,great Democratic candidates.

So he isn't going to be President but the democrats are being stronger, still coming on.

If he has that kind of attitude,it's positively contagious,it's infectious. In a good way. So we can do it here and elsewhere on the blogs/Net as well.


by PeteRock on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre is a Democrat... (2.00 / 3)

She is my friend, too. I got really annoyed at the utter idiocy of some Obama and some HRC supporters taking my attempt to stickup for some coherent sensible evaluation of what was worthwhile and what needed some working on and call ME delusional and a stalker when all I wanted to do:

was try to make some approach that would help ALL of us come the Conventionand general election.

I am defending Alegre and some extremely disconnected (I don't know what else to call her) supporter troll rates me for responding to her points in a way she doesn't like in my own diary!

I have been told I'm a fool for trying to reconcile and out of line. That Alegre is an incorrigible and will end up "voting for McCain"
in the general. WTF????  Where do they get this absurdities?

Last time I looked Alegre is supporting the Democratic nomineee for the Presidency. It hasn't been announced yet. She DIDN'T go on O'Reilly and bash Dkossers,or Obama supporters. She isn't paid by the campaign. Assertions like that are made to poison the air about what she does in support of her candidate.

I don't give an F about accusations about myself that are derived from sticking up for democracy in the real world here and now. She has her right to make a case. I can disagree,but I won't tear down to "win" the points I am making.

I got 270 replies tomy "Stop Hitting Alegre"on Kos  , 1/2  listing all her faults,the "laundry list". I am not doing her laundry! I want US to come clean about how we wash our grubbiness and get cleaned up for November.


by PeteRock on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:53:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre is a Democrat... (none / 0)

People give Alegre alot of crap, but the giving and taking of said crap is part of what has made Alegre notable, and I think she actively feeds into it sometimes.

Case in point, I responded early to one of her diaries on MI and FL. I thought I posed a thoughtful question, but instead of responding to my question, she used it as a club to beat down Obama supporters arguments and remind them I wasn't asking them. Granted, she only beat down the immature arguments, but it struck me as odd that she would spend so much time feeding the "he started it" feud as opposed to respond to thoughtful criticism.


by Djo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:32:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you (2.00 / 7)

thank you deminva.  as another mydd "lifer" (lol - 6 yrs and counting) i sincerely appreciate you laying this out.

now... the chances of people actually following this are probably slim to none for the next few weeks, but hey, FWIW i think you nailed it.


Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:54:06 AM EST

Re: thank you (2.00 / 12)

Thanks!


by deminva on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:56:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

no, thank *you* (2.00 / 2)

for reminding people that we used to have standards around here.

/zing!


Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:59:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As another fairly long termer (none / 0)

though I can't claim 6 years here (though I can claim 4) this was really well done.

Thank you.


by fladem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 06:03:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 1)


Actually, that diarist has the top 3 of the 5 rec diaries.  That's what is so wonderful about mydd -- such a great diversity of opinions.
by neonplaque on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:57:22 AM EST

sad (2.00 / 4)

it really used to be a very respectful, diverse community.  

now the entire rec list is filled with hyperbole.  pathetic really, IMO.


Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:59:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 12)

But how can it be wonderful that a top diarist never, ever, ever engages in substantive back and forth in her diaries?  MyDD should not be a place where supporters of different candidates act like prosecuting or defense attorneys, making by turns the worst or best case for their candidate--whatever the facts may be.  We should all be interested in educating ourselves, and we should hold ourselves to high standards of honesty and circumspection.  MyDD is not Crossfire, nor is it a latenight infomercial.


by deminva on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:01:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

Not true! Quit Bashing Alegre! If you say something really outlandish and childish in one of her diaries, or start an argument that's really easy for her to win, she'll reply in a hurry!


by Djo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 1)

They should just change the name to alegre'sDD. 60% of the wreck list right now was written by her, and her diaries tend to get more comments than the front-pagers.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

that's probably because what she writes is more (none / 0)

arguable.

who wants to post ten zillion comments on Alaska.

More importantly, who wants to do that every time a poll comes out?


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:14:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 1)

Find other peoples' diaries, and rec them. The cure for fan club recs is more people recommending.


by mattw on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:19:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 2)

Not when the reccing going on is clearly concerted. I'm convinced there is an attempt to hijack this site.
by mikeinsf on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 1)

MANY Obama supporters lost their ability to rec diaries.

I firmly believe this was done to keep as many pro-Obama diaries off the rec list as possible.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:11:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

diversity of opinion is all fine and well. (none / 0)

But some people (not just alegre) around here aren't expressing differing opinions, they are fabricating false facts and applying standards of conduct that they are not willing themselves to follow.

That is not exactly laudable.


by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great diary (2.00 / 1)

rec'd


by drmark on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:01:13 AM EST

In spirit (2.00 / 7)

I would rec if I could.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:07:47 AM EST

Re: In spirit (2.00 / 3)

Same here.  :(


by Rumproast on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:14:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll do it for you (2.00 / 3)

I'm from Chicago and we've been known to vote (and rec) more than once :)

j/k


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 5)

Tony Rezko.

Just clarifying.


by Pragmatic Left on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:08:45 AM EST

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 4)

Dr. Mark -- Please, for the love of god, look over my comments.

I am NOT suggesting that Tony Rezko is a legitimate issue.  I am simply clarifying, since the diary called him Mike Rezko.


by Pragmatic Left on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My bad (2.00 / 4)

I'll remove the rating. I actually realized my mistake just as I saw your post. My apologies.

(although ya gotta admit, without context it totally a trollish comment)


by drmark on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:18:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

Haha.  Yeah, I was just scrolling through the comments and saw that had been troll rated and I got really worried :)


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:21:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks (2.00 / 3)

Corrected.  Thanks!


by deminva on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:20:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yep, this is just about right. (2.00 / 3)

Thanks for this.


Obama 2008!
by lollydee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:09:20 AM EST

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and (2.00 / 4)

You got rec.

It won't matter, though.  I'm one of the few of us who can.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:09:54 AM EST

Hey Admins, (none / 0)

Can you give us a ratio?

Number of names on that list/ number of IP addresses?

That wouldn't call anyone out but it would certainly be interesting....


by luckymortal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:10:25 AM EST

Re: Hey Admins, (2.00 / 1)

Not sure how well that'll work. I come in on at least 5-10 IP addresses depending where I am as I access from:
Home, Office1a, Office1b, Office2, Sprint Air Card, Mobile Phone, friends' nets... you get the point.

Now, two usernames coming in on the same IP would be suspicious, but not conclusively malicious


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:34:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Looks good to me. (none / 0)

Rec'd.


Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.
by Massadonious on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:12:48 AM EST

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (1.33 / 3)

Very funny, looks like Obama himself broke some of your rules :)


by devil on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:13:04 AM EST

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 3)

Please substantiate your claim.


by deminva on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:21:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 8)

The post you're responding to doesn't really make any sense.  Obama has never, to my knowledge, posted on myDD, and therefore would be hard pressed to break any of the suggested guidelines you listed.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:22:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fuck, YEAH! (2.00 / 2)

Nice diary, deminva. Good luck on getting any worthwhile responses to it, though.


by bookish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:14:45 AM EST

Boycott Alegre (2.00 / 3)

Alegre's diaries are literally just talking points from the Clinton campaign and everyone should read them, as such. She was, in fact, part of a conference call with Hillary in which Hillary told her and other bloggers to do exactly what Alegre is doing in this frantic and misleading and propagandistic posts. Alegre even told Hillary in the conference call (there is audio of this) that she, Alegre, "speaks for millions."

I think that progressives on MyDD need to boycott Alegre and her diaries. No more responding to them. No more quoting them. Just let her twist in the wind. If she is going to do this, then let her talk to herself.


by DrPolitics on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:15:25 AM EST

I support Alegre (2.00 / 2)

I'm an independent-thinking person, and I "rec" Alegre's posts that I agree with.  I don't know how one can boycott Alegre on MyDD, other than to not read her diaries.  Perhaps you can petition to have a "non-rec" option on this site, so you can continue the wonderful tradition of negativity.


by Sieglinde on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:23:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I will pray for her (none / 0)

and I'm not a naturally religious person.

but ... that may be the best I can do, and I'm not sure who will listen.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:30:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boycott Alegre (none / 0)

That call you reference was a "thank you" to bloggers , encouragement from the candidate to keep up the good work.

As for Alegre speaking for millions of women, I believe that to be true.  There are millions of women who support Hillary who aren't bloggers and don't even read blogs. They have jobs and families to care for. They are overworked and underpaid.  They don't time or energy leftover to write diaries on political blogs.  They are the voiceless.

Alegre is like them but she's been endowed with extra energy and talent which enables her to give them a voice on this monster called the internet.
She is an amazing, dedicated Hillary supporter. She deserved  a "thank you" for her time and devotion.

I take exception to anyone denigrating her efforts.  If you'd actually read her diaries over the last year you'd know she doesn't need to be handed talking points. She's an "original" and she can speak for me anyday.


by Tolstoy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

YES: Boycott Alegre (none / 0)

I think it would behoove a lot of us just to ignore her.  I fall into the trap all the time, but in the end the thread's just a pissing match and no one walks away convinced. Certainly, alegre will concede nothing.

I say let her diaries be the echo chambers the diehards and trolls want it to be.  Substantive debate and exchange of ideas could be held elsewhere. Let's stop giving her and others like texasdarlin the time.

(has alegre responded to this diary, by the way?  I haven't seen it...)


by mikeinsf on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (2.00 / 2)

Alegre acts like a coward by refusing to respond honestly to rebuttals.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:17:25 AM EST

that is the way of the spammer (2.00 / 2)

if your sole purpose is to fire up supporters and solicit campaign $, why would you get bogged down in actual discussion of the issues?  Her diaries are just propaganda, rewriting the latest press release from a first-person perspective.  It's nothing but spam.  To wit:

Guys she went on to talk about Pell grants,  closing energy tax loopholes for bit oil companies, the need to increase CAFÉ standards,and rebuilding the middle class, and she went after Dubbya for his complete and total failure to lead our nation over the past 7 and a half years.

Does this report any new information?  No.  Does it analyze anything?  No.  Does it add any value whatsoever?  Maybe some comedy value for the superfluous accent mark in CAFE, but that's about it.


by JJE on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:29:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that is the way of the spammer (2.00 / 4)

I do like that accent ague.  How about some umlauts on OPEC?


by deminva on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:31:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't know... (2.00 / 3)

I think you should only use umlauts very selectively.  Only for things that could be considered "very metal".  I usually ask myself if axl (rose) would approve before I even consider the issue further.


by Tenafly Viper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Spam is unkind (2.00 / 2)

She's acting like a campaign blogger. Not an especially great one, which is why you get the laundry lists, but spam is overegging it a little.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:09:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay (2.00 / 1)

Make of this what you will

"It is of course well known that careless talk costs lives, but the full scale of the problem is not always appreciated. For instance, at the very moment that Arthur Dent said "I wouldn't want to go anywhere without my wonderful towel," a freak wormhole opened up in the fabric of the space-time continuum and carried his words far far back in time across almost infinite reaches of space to a distant Galaxy where strange and warlike beings were poised on the brink of frightful interstellar battle. The two opposing leaders, resplendent in their black jeweled battle shorts, were meeting for the last time, when, a dreadful silence fell, and, at that very moment, the words, "I wouldn't want to go anywhere without my wonderful towel" drifted across the conference table. Unfortunately, in their native tongue, this was the most appalling insult imaginable, so the two opposing battle fleets decided to settle their few remaining differences in order to launch a joint attack on our galaxy, now positively identified as the source of the offending remark. For thousands of years the mighty starship tore across the empty wastes of space and finally dived screaming on to the planet Earth - where, due to a terrible miscalculation of scale, the entire battle fleet was accidentally swallowed by a small dog. Those who study the complex interplay of cause and effect in the history of the Universe say that this sort of thing is going on all the time. "


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:20:48 AM EST

Here's what I offered in the other thread (2.00 / 30)

But since you asked, I'll repeat:

Rule #1: We don't praise John McCain. Regardless of the point you want to make, you don't build him up by comparison. The only time I've brought up a favorable comparison to McCain is specifically in the context of Clinton making her "I've crossed that line, McCain has crossed that line" speech, where I pointed out that if she wanted to win the nomination that way, McCain can draw his own line that she can't cross. So in short, unless the Dem candidate is praising McCain, in which case, fair's fair.

Rule #2: Don't post stupid electability arguments. I'm not saying don't say one is more electable than the other. But if you're going to attempt to argue that one is as good as dead in the fall, I say: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Everything we can see shows that both our candidates are extremely electable, and since McCain has had a largely free ride for months, I think it's safe to say the worst is yet to come for him. If you're going to argue the supers must "save" the party, please, be rational, and realize that your argument is, on the face, absurd. You must make a world class argument, or you're just blowing hot air.

Rule #3: If you have raised a talking point dozens of times in the past, please indicate that you actually read the other side. For example, it is entirely inappropriate to talk about Obama's "present" votes as if they were somehow anti-choice; or, if you want to ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary, it at least behooves you to include a disclaimer. You won't see me talking about how Hillary's campaign contacted the Canadian PM regarding NAFTA, since evidence to that effect was basically debunked. Likewise, I'd appreciate it if diaries from regulars did not read like propaganda pieces that completely ignore the other side.

Rule #4: If you get the urge to cheerlead for a Democratic candidate, please realize that the two Democrats both largely stand for the same thing. When someone exhorts people to vote for Hillary because, "We need to end the war" or "We need to fix health care in this country", I always double-take. If we're contrasting against McCain, wonderful. We need those. Our candidates are clearly the right choice. But most such claims seem to be attached to fundraising appeals and warnings up upcoming Democratic primaries. They did vote the same 98% of the time. The hyperbolic, "X is the only person who can possibly Y" arguments treat the reader as stupid, frankly.

Rule #5: Put yourself in the other side's shoes. This is the Golden Rule. If your post is written as if your candidate's superiority is a foregone conclusion, then don't be surprised when people want to pop that balloon - be it counterarguments, sarcasm, or totally non sequitur "but he can't even win WV?" type comebacks; if you can't acknowledge, implicitly or explicitly, that half the party (roughly) disagrees with you, then you should probably rephrase or rethink.

Not so much in the "rules" vein, but similar to point #5, I'd hope that both sides consider:

(1) Clinton supporters: imagine the positions reversed. You have to seriously picture Hillary as a near-lock, with Obama praying for a superdelegate overturn, the credentials committee seating Illinois (even though Clinton wasn't on the ballot) and South Carolina in full, and making some specious claim on the popular vote total. Meanwhile, supers are flocking to her, the press has declared her the winner, and, oh yeah, she has a ton of money and Obama is $20M in the hole. I'm not saying don't fight for your candidate, but try to respect the position the "other side" is in.

(2) Obama supporters: As long as Clinton has not conceded, don't expect the Clinton supporters to concede. If she goes to the convention, they go to the convention. If positions were reversed and you were really passionate about Obama's candidacy, and were convinced he was better in the fall and more electable besides, would you quit before he did? Show some respect for the passionate Clinton supporters.

Oh, yes:

Rule #6: PICK A TOPIC. Please. Pleeeease. Don't make one diary into a hodgepodge run-down of every pro-Your-Candidate anti-Their-Candidate news you can find. If you're making a diary about your candidate's awesome campaign rally, be about that, and save the jab at the other candidate for another time. If you're slamming the other candidate for a vote or a policy position, focus on that, instead of putting two paragraphs toward that, and then dedicating three more to, "It's just like X to do this, like they did A, and then B, and then they did C, which proves they're unelectable!" Argh!  (This last thing is most frequently seen by people are are simultaneously trodding all over "Rule #3")

Anyhow, if I made the rules - and I obviously don't ;) - that's what my rules would be. I'm trying to follow them. They've evolved. But that's my take.


by mattw on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:22:26 AM EST

Re: Here's what I offered in the other thread (2.00 / 5)

Great additions!  And yes, the principle of reversibility ought to be employed far more often than it (evidently) is.


by deminva on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's what I offered in the other thread (2.00 / 1)

Can I suggest you edit your diary to include these rules with a credit? Very good advice that needs to be put up there for those who tend to avoid comment threads due to precisely the problems being drawn attention to here.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:13:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's what I offered in the other thread (none / 0)

Will do!


by deminva on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:00:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Virtual rec. n/t (2.00 / 3)


by bookish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:27:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's what I offered in the other thread (2.00 / 5)


This is an excellent comment, but, particularly, rule #1.  This may be the actual golden rule.
by Crookd River Progressive on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:37:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here's what I offered in the other thread (2.00 / 5)

Outstanding comment...one I would like to see turned into a diary, please!

Also, this is one of the better diaries I have read on MyDD in a long time...rec'd and congrats to the diarist!


by NYMinute on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:38:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I would rec if I could. (2.00 / 3)

I don't think I've ever violated either of your rules, but while I can rec diaries (and I did in this case), I can't rec your comment.

Nobody reading my comments (even an ardent Hillary supporter) would ever think I should have rec priviliges revoked, so I don't know what happened.  I realize I am not alone.


by sasatlanta on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:55:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would rec if I could. (2.00 / 1)

Did you try the password-change thing? I know tons of people had their rate/rec actually removed, but I personally had mine disappear, and the password change fixed it. No idea why.

Thanks anyhow, though. I think all the mojo in the world and $.50 (or, $4.50?) will get me a cup of coffee, fwiw. ;)


by mattw on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:21:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right on! (2.00 / 4)

Virtual rec from me.


Can't rec or rate -- next username, please!
by neeborMolgula on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:24:38 AM EST

Thanks (2.00 / 2)

For Spelling it out.  Rec'd


by NewOaklandDem on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:27:42 AM EST

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 3)

This can be summed up in one rule.
1. Don't say anything about Obama ever unless it's praise.

The reality is NO candidate is perfect, and in a national election EVERY issue is on the table.  If people wan to talk about them, no matter how silly they may seem, they should be allowed.  

When did it become acceptable to let ourselves be silenced simply because the majority does not want to hear what we have to say?  

When did it become acceptable in the democratic party to silence any group because we don't want to hear what they have to say?


by nyarch on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:36:59 AM EST

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 6)

Nobody's being silenced.

We are reclaiming MyDD from a cesspole of vitriol and hate and restoring the luster of a proud, progressive blog that it once had!


by NYMinute on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:39:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think that's the point (2.00 / 6)

I personally love to hear arguments against Obama that are not racist, pandering to racism, attacking the credibility of the Democratic party or ridiculous unfounded personal attacks.

They give us a basis for honest discussion.

Those other things don't.

Just to be clear, a candidate's personal qualities are an important part of their qualifications for president. THey are personal attacks. So the burden of proof is set higher. But there's a difference between:

1. HRC lacks judgment--she voted for Bush's Iraq war.

2. HRC only got as far as she did because she's a woman and old women voted for her because they don't like black men.

You see the difference, right?


by luckymortal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:50:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree completely... (none / 0)

I had an idea that was the purpose of participating in the blogosphere.  

Most of us are here to hear other people's ideas and viewpoints.  If they contradict your own view of reality, you counter it with facts to the contrary.

But when most of the arguements are poor attempts at propaganda and reiterating candidate supplied talking points,  it begins to feel insulting and disrespectful.  The points mentioned in this diary, are all things that are specifically designed to encumber discussions.  They are arguements put forth for the purpose of stifling dissent.  It gives the appearance of being very anti-intellectual.


by Tenafly Viper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 8)

Strange who many people equate being asked to stick to facts with "being silenced"


by BlueinColorado on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:51:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

Neither side has the facts.  Neither side is making their case entirely from the facts.  Neither side can say one is better than the other and back it up with facts.  It is an election, it is personal, it is opinion based, it is fluid.  We can and should fight for a more civil discourse, but to pretend that any political discussion is based only in facts is to deny the nature of politics.


by nyarch on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:08:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 4)

Okay: Stick to not outright lying then (case in point: Obama's present votes in the Illinois legislature, which are mentioned several times a day here).

Agreeing with everything you said in this post, nothing the diarist said can be equated with "being silenced".


by BlueinColorado on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

Obama's excuses for his present votes were debunked on this blog at the time. Go back to the archives and read for yourself. Try not to insult this community by accusing people of lying.


by souvarine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:27:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 2)

No, they weren't.


by BlueinColorado on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:28:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

So we have a difference of opinion, who is lying?


by souvarine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:32:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 2)

who is lying?

Bonnie Grabenhofer.

The poor guy is getting all this heat for a strategy we, the pro-choice community, did," said Pam Sutherland, president and CEO of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/ob ama/679446,CST-NWS-obama04.article


by BlueinColorado on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:38:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 2)

It's not necessarily a question of which poster is lying, as I expect you know.  One of them is simply wrong.  For the record, Alegre completely misrepresented this issue in her diary taking NARAL to task for its endorsement of Obama, and many Clinton supporters piled on.


by deminva on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

Obama voted present to give cover to downticket dems in conservative areas.  Childers recently won a special election in MO to take a seat that was R for a generation (formerly Dennis Hasterts seat) when the entire republican strategy was to tie him to Obama, so I would argue that his strategy worked quite well. I am open and looking foward to your rebuttal.


by Djo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:56:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

Denny Hastert was from IL not MO.  Childers actively moved away from Obama.


by nyarch on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:12:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

Without a link, it's just a worthless pile of pixels.


Can't rec or rate -- next username, please!
by neeborMolgula on Tue May 20, 2008 at 04:11:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Or, perhaps stick to logic based arguements... (none / 0)

There is a concerted effort to eschew all the most simple rules of debate class.  If you wouldn't hear it in a 10th grade debate, you probably shouldn't use it.

An especially egregious offense is:  Go back to ___ where you're appreciated.  I see that in every other thread.


by Tenafly Viper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

How about FL and MI?

According to the rules it is both O.K. to let the current ruling stand or to change the current ruling to something different.

Wether or not it should they should be counted or not is an individual judgement call based on morality as the DNC rules allowed both changing the penalty and letting the current ruling stand all along.

Yet according to this diary it would not be permitted to breach that subject. So yes that would being silenced.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:14:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

Um, my diary doesn't say that.  Not at all.  I'm all for thoughtful discussions, even disagreements, about how to handle FL and MI.  It's an issue that has been oversimplified, with heroes and villains.  I do take Clinton to task for offering one rationale for keeping her name on the MI ballot (i.e., that it didn't matter because the primary wouldn't count, and therefore she wasn't getting an unfair advantage) then attempting to lead the effort to undo that rationale.

I used MI and FL in an example of a baldly contradictory statement.  What I meant was this: Many posters have said that we must count all the delegates from MI and FL to be fair, but there are many unfair aspects of such a solution.  Among other things, every other primary and caucus has been conducted with the expectation that the results would count.  Volunteers have mobilized support; candidates have campaigned; voters have known their votes matters.  None of these pertained in MI and FL.  In MI, in particular, a portion of the Democratic base voted in the Republican primary, many because they wanted to help the Democratic party by gumming up the Republicans' nominating process.  They were later told that, if the primary were reheld, they couldn't vote in it.  That's not fair.  More fundamentally, Obama removed his name from the MI ballot, per the wishes of the party leadership.  Clinton did not.  Now, she and her supporters tell us that the results must stand.  That's extraordinarily unfair!

I never said you can't talk about an issue.  The whole point of my "rules" (which, again, I have zero power to enforce) was that I think you ought to follow them if you want the respect of our community.  That's just one guy's opinion.


by deminva on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:19:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

Both in your orignal point and in this explantion you gloss over the fact that reasonable people can think that those points are less important then the unfairness of not counting the people who did vote, and overcame those limitations. It's similar with caucusses. Some people think that the commitment of the people who do go combined with the directness of participation weighs up against the far lower turnout and  trouble that a lot of working people with kids have attending.

Even with all your points people can still think its sitting the delegation as is is the fair thing to do. You believe differently but it's based, just like the reverse position on the values a person has. The facts are that the decision to suspend was legitimate but that an appeal and reversal of that decision is also legitimate. This discussion is about fairness, Fairness is an emotional based judgment call. yet you poised the point as if it was about self evident facts.

If you called for people not to oversimplify complex issues in favor of a preffered candidate you certainly would have had a good case, but you stated in the original point the a gross oversimplification that it was baldly contradicting, while as stated it simply wasn't. It's simply a gross oversimplification just like that point was.

And I personally disagree with the premise that the victors should be courted and the losers should earn the winners respect. Obama won, his supporters (of which I'm a extremely lukewarm one) can afford to be gracious. After all it's not like the Obama supporters as a group have a less spotted history.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:33:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 5)


I don't think the question is whether people are allowed to criticize Senator Obama on whatever basis they may choose.  Its a free country.

But its also a (loosely) regulated website.  The question is really whether there should be certain norms of interaction within a community of common interest or not.

I am personally less than thrilled when supporters from either camp threaten to sit out or vote Republican in November.  Each individual has the right to vote as they please, but holding your fellow Democrats hostage is corrosive to party unity.  Sometimes we just suck it up and vote for our second, third, or fourth choice, without enthusiasm, regardless of hurt feelings.

Along the same lines, praise for John McCain is anathema to what we're ostensibly trying to accomplish here.

The rest of it I am generally fine with.  I don't love it when posters light into Senator Clinton.  She's a Democratic superstar who deserves better.  I don't love it when posters make no attempt to try to understand the tightrope Senator Obama has to walk when its come to past affiliations given his complicated personal history.  But I recognize that people don't want to/ simply cannot discuss the finer points of health care, foreign policy, etc. for 18 months. And I recognize that electability is a legitimate issue (although one frequently discussed in self-serving ways).

In the end, we should be willing to accept that there can only be one winner and that the whole idea of political parties is that, after we scrap, we come together ot beat the other guys.


by Crookd River Progressive on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:09:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (none / 0)

Nobody's saying shut up. They're saying, go find out the facts, compare the substantive differences between the two candidates policies, and bring information to this site that has ACTUAL MEANING and spend less time worrying about whether Obama is a muslim or Hillary wears a white hood.


by Djo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:52:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Okay, I'll Tell You What Is (and What Is Not) (2.00 / 5)

would rec if I could


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:37:23 AM EST

the double standard (1.42 / 7)

Sorry, this diary is pathetic and it illustrates allegre's point. To wit:

1. Now polls determine substance? Explains a lot about some people's thought process.

2. I wish there were more Obama supporters who could do more than repeat his talking points. At this point I'm down to bored now.

3. If you don't believe every vote must count, how are you a Democrat? If you value the rules over the vote then I submit that you are at odds with the fundamental value of the Democratic party: democracy.

4. Delegate selection is the least transparent aspect of this primary. Are you willing to abandon that "black-box" metric?

5. For Obama supporters these are "facts", for the rest of us they are your opinion (aka canards). This is a blog about politics, there are very few "facts" in politics or even life and it is very difficult to capture them in the written word. What you have presented is your interpretation of events, not of the facts.

6. Same goes for the regular calls for "unity" followed by trashing of one or another core Democratic demographic.

7. Again with the slippery definition of "facts". You can do better than quote-mining:

"It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything," Clinton said Thursday during an interview on New Hampshire Public Radio's call-in program, "The Exchange." "But I just personally did not want to set up a situation where the Republicans are going to be campaigning between now and whenever, and then after the nomination, we have to go in and repair the damage to be ready to win Michigan in 2008."

8. I'm impervious to the name-calling. We are all better off not taking it personally. But there are instances of sexism or racism that must be called out.


by souvarine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:45:49 AM EST

Re: the double standard (2.00 / 7)

1. Polls determine nothing but the whim of the day.  Which is why Obama supporters get on Clinton supporters for citing them as evidence on "why he can't win".

2. Vice-versa.  That said, there are several interesting discussions on the non-rec diaries right now, regarding finance reform, net neutrality, and others, sorely in need of comments.

3. I believe every fair vote must count.  I don't count elections where a candidate says "this won't count" and then gets in position to say "wait, it must count!".  That's not a fair vote.  Sorry.

4. Delegate selection appears to be the winning metric, as that determines the winner.  Campaign for reform if you dislike that.

5. Every fact is an interpretation of events.

6. Agreed 100%.  Surely you'll also agree that the "Clinton or McCain" crowd embodies the worst of this?

7. I agree with Clinton here.  100%.  It wasn't a good move, and Obama believed the same.  And that election certainly did not count for anything.

8. Agreed.  And while I would hope to see very little of BOTH on a DEM site, I have to say I am furious with the amount of diaries that try and hijack my support for Obama into being anti-woman in some way.  I find it offensive, insane, and utterly off-putting.  I am not voting for Obama because he's a man, I'm voting for him because he's the better candidate in my opinion.  

That's what a VOTE is- one person's opinions.  Everyone has had their chance to vote.  Even with the Florida and Michigan contests (where Obama got 0% of the vote, CLEARLY the will of the people there considering he won nearly all the neighboring states) counting, Clinton is behind.  I'm sorry, but splitting the party in half by pitching a temper tantrum isn't the way to go about things.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:57:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the double standard (none / 0)

You almost get alegre's point, vice-versa is it. There are multiple sides to each of these points, and none of us have the "facts" on our side. This primary is too close for that. At best we should each try to make the best case for our opinions, which requires some understanding of other opinions.


by souvarine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the double standard (2.00 / 1)

I get alegre's point loud and clear, but unfortunately, that point seems to be it's Clinton or she'll do "nothing".

That's fine, if that's what she feels, I'm just unclear why she has to post it six times per day.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the double standard (2.00 / 6)

IF you don't care about my and my family's votes in Michigan (Mostly Flint area) who were Obama supporters and didn't get to vote for their candidate, then how are YOU a Democrat? If you value your candidate over a fair vote in Michigan and Florida then I submit that you are at odds....

And remember, you are arguing for disenfranchising people I love PERSONALLY and giving their votes to a candidate I don't support. So think about that.

Delegate selection has transparent rules that were decided upon in advance as the currency of the state contests. HRC agreed that it was the only valid metric. "Popular vote" is a sham and no one has ever even tried to defend it to me here.


by luckymortal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the double standard (1.00 / 10)

I care very much about your vote. That is why I think it was so sleazy of Obama to orchestrate the name removal. The man has a history of these anti-democratic maneuvers, legal shenanigans were the key to his first election.


by souvarine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:08:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the double standard (2.00 / 3)

The man has a history of organizing a groundbreaking campaign to help register voters. Look up his bio on wikipedia.

You don't just get to make this stuff up as you go.

Your claim that Obama used mind controlling devices to get the states of Michigan and Florida to break the rules and then manipulate the party leaders, including HRC to openly state that the election shouldn't count.

IF Obama has those kinds of superpowers I totally think he deserves to be president. Because, he's like a superhero. Cool!

Truly it's OUTRAGEOUS to make the claim that Obama orchestrated the name removal.

IN your mind, Obama controlled the DNC and all the other candidates and got them to remove their names, except for HRC (in order to confound her supporters?) in a secret conspiracy to get him elected?

I'm pretty dern good at research and I just googled your assertion a dozen different ways and could find no info to verify your claim.


by luckymortal on